Helping Kids and Teens with Perfectionism

Lynn Smith: Perfectionism. It's a word that we as society tend to hold in high regard. We associate it with people who are overachievers and have high standards. These individuals appear to have it all together and never seem to make mistakes. All great attributes, right? The challenge is when the standards become unrealistic.

 

Perfectionism is a personality trait in which someone has unreasonably high standards and a tendency to be overly critical of themselves. If you tuned into this episode, there's a good chance you're here because you know someone with perfectionism and are looking for guidance to help support them.

 

Today, we'll open with first hand insight from Andy, whose story might sound familiar. From a young age, he was driven to greatness in the classroom and on the soccer field. Fear of failure propelled him to success, but as we'll hear from him, that success came at a cost. By the time he headed off to the University of Georgia, he left behind a bedroom full of trophies and award certificates. As an undergrad at UGA, his success continued. Silently, though, his drive was contributing to depression and even thoughts of suicide. For Andy, having parents who actively listened and provided a safe, open space to share his feelings made all the difference.

 

We'll also hear from by Jody Baumstein, who's become a regular guest on our podcast.

Jody is a licensed mental health therapist from the Children's Strong4Life team, who has a true gift for helping coach parents through matters involving mental and behavioral health. It's my pleasure to welcome both Andy Irwin and Jody Baumstein to the show.

 

Andy, I'd like to start with you. You're a native Atlantan. You're working currently at Children's in the Finance Division. And before we dive in more to the reason why you're with us today, can you help us get to know more about you and your family?

 

Andy Irwin: Yes, of course. So my name's Andy. I actually grew up in Gwinnett County, not too far from where I am right now, a son of two engineers, but now one's a pilot and my mom's a math teacher. My younger sister is at Johns Hopkins doing her MD PhD.

 

Growing up, I would say that we definitely had a supportive, attentive family structure. I think I followed after my parents a lot. I really loved math and science. Knowing how and why things worked. It was that, plus an early passion to want to help people that pointed me to healthcare. I always had a desire to come back to Children's Healthcare of Atlanta. Thankfully, that worked out about three years ago. I've been here now within the finance division for the past two years. I am working as a project manager supporting our Chief Financial Officer

Lynn Smith: it's never easy to talk about this. It's not easy to talk about mental health and struggles with mental health, so what inspired you to get so personal with this?

Andy Irwin: I found in talking with people, just one on one, offhandedly I found that my story was quite relatable. Somebody knew someone that maybe exhibited certain similar tendencies, had similar struggles, and I think that gave my story power. Ultimately, I felt like it was more powerful to share the experiences than to keep them to myself. I was just sitting in a one on one with our vice president in a finance division and I said, “Hey, here's a passion that I have. I'm really interested in the destigmatization of mental health, of connecting people to resources. What do I do with this at Children's?” And he said, “Oh, great. I've got the perfect people for you”. He connected me with two wonderful leaders, Erin Harlow-Parker and Marc Welsh within our Children's Strong for Life program. It's led to such amazing opportunities, like being a part of Strong for Life's Raising Resilience and even being here with you all today. I'm incredibly grateful for that connection.

Lynn Smith: Yeah, and as you say, sharing that story helps others to say, “It's okay to not be okay.” I know that's actually what your parents said to you when you reached out for help. Let's talk a little bit about how you got there. Going back to as early as your elementary school days, it's like this people pleasing and this general desire to be perfect. Was this just in you or was this something that maybe you felt pressure externally?

 

Andy Irwin: Like you said, I really can, especially looking back, notice the early signs of this beginning to exhibit itself. There's probably a number of stories that I can tell in this instance, but there is one that really stands out toward the end of my elementary school days. I had just transferred to a new school. I can remember going through some of those first weeks of classes. You have your typical disciplinary talk. First offense would be a warning. Second offense of behavior, you'd have to sign the book and sit out for a portion of recess. I can remember even back then, the teacher doing such a good job of separating the person from the behavior; saying, “Hey, this is going to happen to everyone. Everyone's going to sign the book. It doesn't make you a bad kid. You're not a bad person.”

 

I remember going throughout that year, and not only did I never sign the book, but I never even got a warning, and as I look back now especially, that was such a horrible thing to happen to me. It didn't come from external pressures—it honestly came from within. I had unknowingly set the expectation in my mind that was the standard. That I could never put a foot wrong. That's not me. That's not anyone, so it really did become what I'll call this gradual decline into perfectionism and people pleasing, and I can track myself putting more and more of my self-worth into what I accomplished and how I made other people feel. When you do that you inevitably put your own wants, needs, desires in the back seat.

 

Lynn Smith: Jody, I saw you react when he was talking about that book. And do you think that some of the disciplinary actions for children can bring out that perfectionism because we're so afraid of getting in trouble?

 

Jody Baumstein: Yes. The short answer is yes. And a lot of it's really well intended. If we're in a school and we've got a ton of kids, we need some kind of structure and order, but we have to be careful that we don't crush their spirit or create such intense fear that kids are scared to take a risk. We see this happen a lot. We end up praising the kids for the things we want them to do. “Oh, you're so smart. You're so good. You're so well behaved. You're the best student. You're the best listener.” But what we are sometimes unintentionally doing, is creating a sense of fear, and then they're scared to take a risk—to make a mistake. This creates a really intense fear of failure.

 

When we're thinking about perfectionism, people immediately think high standards. That's great, right? What's wrong with that? The problem is perfectionism isn't about high standards. Perfectionism is really when we have now dipped our toe into unreasonable, unrealistic and unattainable standards. That’s coupled with this intense self-criticism. And so that's where it gets really tricky. We want kids to have high standards, but that comes from a place of wanting to learn and grow and evolve. Perfectionism is more about, “I have these unrealistic expectations, and I'm highly critical of myself, and I'm never satisfied. And I'm actually just trying really hard to maintain this perfect image so I can avoid the judgment of others.”

 

Lynn Smith: It's something that even adults deal with—it's probably resonating with people who are listening now. If you strive for perfection, you fail a hundred percent of the time. There is no perfection. So why are you seeking it? And it's really that internal dialogue of why are you seeking that perfection, Andy, for you, what was it as you got older? You started playing competitive sports. You were smart. You had it all. Tell me how that internal dialogue played out for you.

 

Andy Irwin: You're right, if you were to look at me, I think you would have thought that I had a lot going for me. I ended up graduating as salutatorian of my class. I was the captain of our high school soccer team, pursuing a college soccer career at that point in time. I would say that I tried to be friendly to people—generally, I had good connections throughout my class and I don't know even with those friends that I had made that people knew to the extent that I was struggling. I was not meeting the unrealistic standards that I had set for myself.

 

Just like Jody mentioned, I was wearing a lot of masks for who I thought that I should be. I was applying to things that I didn't necessarily have an internal passion or desire for, it was just what I thought was expected of me. It led to a lot of inner turmoil, a lot of internal exhaustion. I think there were areas of my life that I can look back and relationships where I didn't have the energy to invest that I really wanted to.

 

Lynn Smith: It ultimately led to depression. Can you tell me what your aha moment was? This moment when you realize this is a problem and one that I can't solve on my own.

 

Andy Irwin: Like I said, I think it was a continual, gradual slope into these behaviors that generally became more and more severe. Looking back at college in particular, I was at a 3.8 GPA in biochemistry and microbiology. I was playing on my university's men's soccer team, going to my research lab where I had just been able to present research at an international conference and exhibiting the same struggles internally.

 

I don't know if there's a true turning point, but there's one day that really stands out in particular and I think it gets its power again from being so commonplace. I had woken up, gotten ready for class, gone into my research lab, gone to study. I've gone in for my organizational meetings, gone to soccer practice, gone back to study on campus, and at this point in time, it was somewhere probably between 1 and 2 a.m. I was leaving the heart of the campus where I was studying, and I was walking across a bridge right next to our football stadium, and I can remember looking up—it all lit up in the distance—and I stop about halfway through. I look at my hand and it is clutching this railing so tightly that it's almost like the color is vanished from it.

 

That was a pivotal moment for me because I stopped and reflected on the fact that there was actually a significant part of me that wanted to jump. These thoughts of suicide and the nature of my depression really brought about this turning point in my mind of, “Okay this can't go on. You can't do this alone.”

Lynn Smith: And so, what did you do?
 

Andy Irwin: There were truly two simple things over the course of the next week that changed my entire trajectory. It was one, a call that I made to my parents and two, a text that I sent to my roommates who were my best friends in college at that time and still are to this day. it was very simple messaging. It was letting them know, “Hey, here's what I've been experiencing. Here are my struggles. I don't think this can continue in this way.”

 

Without their acceptance, support and courage in those conversations, I don't think I myself would have had the courage to then go and take the next step and pursue the resources on campus that were thankfully publicized and readily available for me at that time. It truly built the foundation that I was able to build on since.

Lynn Smith: And I want to talk to you more about what that foundation looks like. Jody, for you, first is this textbook perfectionism? And do you see, starting as early as 5 and 6, it's the same thing that Andy was talking about in kindergarten that he's talking about in microbiology. This idea of people pleasing and it's never enough.
 

Jody Baumstein: Yeah, we do see it really young. This is very common. I think some of what I heard in Andy's story that is so relatable is you just start to look outside and you think, “This is what I should do.” You lose a sense of yourself in that. You stop feeling connected to who you are and what you need.

 

Lynn Smith: That phone call he describes to his parents, for anyone that's received a phone call like that, what is the best way to connect and make sure that anyone on the other line feels as supported and taken care of as Andy did?
 

Jody Baumstein: We have to acknowledge that we as humans are very uncomfortable with somebody else's pain, especially somebody we love and care about. We naturally go into a place where we want to fix it. We see somebody suffering, and we desperately want to take away the pain. Sometimes, we go into that mode and we might say things like, “It's going to be okay,” and “It's going to be fine,” and we can even sometimes minimize and dismiss. It's well intended, but that's what can happen. So, we need to be aware of that and override that instinct and show some restraint.

 

A huge part of what people need in these moments is to feel listened to and genuinely heard and understood and validated. Validation doesn't mean you have had to experience it yourself, but you're saying, “I get it. It makes sense to me.” You're not minimizing or dismissing it. The other thing is, which I think is so present in the story, is that it's relatable. We need to know that we're not so broken or flawed, but what we're experiencing is really universal. We need to help normalize it, that it makes sense, it's normal, and it's okay.

 

That sense of not being alone in it, that's what gives people hope. “Okay, you can listen and also you can be in it with me. You're not trying to fix it. You're not trying to run from it.” You're saying, “I can handle it.” That's often what will stop kids when they're young from confiding in adults is because they're worried they won't be able to handle it.

Lynn Smith: And they might not have the courage to make the phone call that Andy did, so are there warning signs that parents can look for?

Jody Baumstein: About perfectionism in general, we want to be thinking about the kids who are overly critical, very sensitive to criticism, really beating themselves up, low self-esteem, sometimes low confidence. Now that's not the case with all kids, prime example, like Andy, probably didn't exhibit those things, at least outwardly, and so it might look like the kid who is just like the star student and always on top of it, never seems to make a mistake. We typically will praise that, but internally they might be really struggling.

You might notice that there is an intense fear of failure and mistakes. They only try what they know they're going to be successful at because, “No way am I going to try something that might lead to failure.”

 

Another thing we see, again, not necessarily in Andy's story, but with other kids, is we might see that there's a real pattern with procrastination. “I'm not even going to start this work because I don't think I could do it flawlessly,” or “I'm really going to be indecisive and struggle with making decisions because I'm so scared that I have to make the perfect choice. I'm not going to make one.” This is an interesting one because I think it can get mislabeled very easily. We call some kids lazy. They're an underachiever. They might feel that inner perfectionist. Now on the flip side, we've got the kids who are doing everything academically. They're engaging in all the activities and everything they're doing at a high level. Soon the surface, we think, “Look at them. They're so successful. There's nothing to worry about. They're just crushing it.” We have to stop and ask the questions. Kids don't always, especially younger kids, don't have the language to tell us that they might be struggling. We need to ask and really start probing.

 

Now, the last thing I will say is that what's common with perfectionism is that kids will also experience depression, suicidal ideation, anxiety, even eating disorders, OCD. So often there are other signs that there is something going on, but we have to stop acting like this perfect image of kids being the great student and high achieving is the goal because that alone can lead you down a really dark path.

Lynn Smith: I feel like this can really resonate with adults, as well. Many struggle with this when it comes to parenting. We go onto social media. We see parents who seem like they have it all together. Everyone's wearing matching outfits. Everyone's smiling. Everyone's getting a great achievement, successes, and you feel like, nothing's ever good enough because everyone is so perfect online. How do you combat some of the expectations that are put out there for adults?

Jody Baumstein: I think for some people, it's a very reactive process. “I see this and now I'm having this emotional response and now I feel crappy.” I think there's a lot of power and planting your feet on the ground and defining for you what success looks like because if you don't do that, you won't know it even if it's smacking you in the face.

 

So as a family, what is success? Is it doing all the things? Is it that I have peace? Is it that I have balance? Is it that we have good quality connections? Is it that we learn to trust our instincts and trust our inner voice and go after the things that we want? got to define success. If we don't, we are constantly looking out to everybody else to tell us what it is and then we feel terrible because we're not there.

 

Lynn Smith: Andy, this seems like it's really resonating with you. I see you shaking your head and things like that. Going back to your college days, I know you played soccer at UGA, and I'd love to hear about this sort of intense need to succeed, especially when it comes to sports, because I think a lot of our listeners probably have children that are playing competitive sports or are dealing with the fact that right now to get into college you have to be best at everything and in all these clubs and playing all these sports and it's just unrealistic.

 

Andy Irwin: Oh, absolutely. You're right. I especially feel for kids growing up with that sort of pressure put on them, that everything goes on a resume. And I'm not saying that it's bad to prepare for your next steps to invest time and energy into those things that you enjoy, but I can remember from a very early age in soccer, I loved it, but it did consume a lot of my time and energy. That can put a lot of pressure as well as I'm going in and placing more of my self-worth into my achievements. I'm placing self-worth into my performance at practice or at school. As Jody mentioned before, I really do resonate with some of those traits of being afraid to try other things because I didn't think I'd be good at them right away, or I was scared of taking a misstep and having a sense of failure and having that label that I thought would persist, which is not the case at all.

 

So. one of the things that's really helped me, and I know we'll talk more about coping strategies and all of that, but I grew up taking piano lessons, and it wasn't for me. I didn't carry on with it. But in my freshman year of college at UGA, I'd be sitting in my dorm room, or in the common area I should say, and people would come down and start playing the community piano. I fell in love with it. I was fascinated by listening to people. And so, it opened up for the first time something where I was okay not being good at something. I just wanted to do something because I enjoyed it. I started to find little practice rooms in our School of Art and Music, and I would just go there and play because it was calming to me and a de-stressor for me in the midst of finals. To have something without an expectation to be great—just doing something for the love of it—has been incredibly enjoyable and impactful for me.
 

Lynn Smith: I love that. And before we get to some of the other coping strategies, because that's a really powerful one, you talked about that fear of failure. Jody, what is the difference between, “I failed” and “I'm a failure,” because that's what's holding people back.

Jody Baumstein: I love this question, and it's actually funny, Andy mentioned this concept from his teacher about separating what we do from who we are. This is where this comes into play. So if I think If I'm a failure, then that's the end of the road because now I'm saying that's who I am. “That's my identity. I am defined by that.” So, there's no hope. There's no motivation. There's no ability to grow and change.

 

When we switch it to, “I have failed, what does that do?” It does a lot. What it does is it makes it something we've experienced. It's not who we are. It's temporary, it's short term, and it gives us hope because now we see it as this thing that I've experienced, maybe now or in the past, and there's somewhere to go now. I can do something differently next time. On the surface, it doesn't seem like a big difference, but it is huge because the words we say to ourselves really matter. And our brain will start to believe what we repeatedly tell it. If I am consistently saying, “I'm a failure, I'm not good enough,” that's what it will believe. That's where the shame spiral starts to come in. And at that point we begin hustling. We are now hustling for our self-worth. We are hustling to try to prove that we are more. And that is the difference often between that perfectionism and just the high standards. The high standard is, “I want to do more for me. I want to learn, I want to grow, I want to evolve. I want to see these mistakes as opportunities.”

 

Perfectionism is, “This feels terrible. I need to maintain this image and I need to hustle and burn myself out to the point where maybe I'll finally feel good enough.” But we won't. No matter how much we do, we will not because we've already decided, “This is who I am.” And that's a very fixed mindset. If we say, “This is who I am,” there's no changing it.

 

Lynn Smith: Andy, how did you change that voice? That voice that said, “You're not enough, you're a failure,” to now, “I failed, this makes me stronger, resiliency is the best thing that can happen to me.”

 

Andy Irwin: I think it's a never-ending journey to get better at those things. One of the first exercises that was super meaningful to me was this idea of growing comfortable with imperfection, and my therapist challenged me in very funny and trivial but meaningful ways. She would say, “Andy you've got to show up to work tomorrow with mismatched socks.” I'd say, “Why would I do that?” But, going through the experience of a minor discomfort, to walk through the day and have the experience of saying, “Okay, here I am showing this imperfection.” Very few people actually noticed. For those that did, it was such a temporary feeling of discomfort. And the next day I woke up, the world was still turning, and I realized I was okay. As I started to do these little things like stand in the wrong way on an elevator, or leave a grammatical mistake in an email, it chipped away at this false belief that I had carried for a long time.

 

Those things have definitely evolved into other things like the practice of self-compassion, which definitely includes the setting of healthy boundaries, which is something that I've definitely struggled with for most of my life.

 

I had a boss when I was in grad school that would say to me probably weekly, “Hey, don't let perfect be the enemy of great.” And it was true. And like Jody mentioned earlier, I would procrastinate on things. I would not take on assignments because I was scared of the potential failure. It turned out that all of that added time and energy and stress. It wasn't adding to the quality of my work, it was just deteriorating my mental well-being. So, things like that, I still mention to myself at work to this day.

Lynn Smith: Yeah, and something you pointed out is your therapist. You got help and support and you continue to focus on that. This is an ongoing journey. And Jody, you talk about something called the power of yet. I love this. Can you share this with the audience?

 

Jody Baumstein: Sure. I think that, when we are thinking to ourselves, “I can't do this.” It's again, that fixed mindset. It's the end of the road. There's nowhere to go with that. When we add in this tiny word, “Can't yet,” What it's doing is it is creating that sense of hope. It's creating an openness in our minds that, “Huh, maybe this could be different.” And so, we have to teach this. We have to model it. We have to help kids understand that we're not born knowing much of anything. We know how to cry and get our needs met, but everything else is learned. And we show them that, “Okay, I didn't know how to do this thing. So, what's the process? Okay. I'm going to watch somebody do it. I'm going to do it with them, and then I'm going to try it on my own.”

 

Really helping them understand that this word, “yet,” is something we all have to think about. We're not just naturally born knowing how to do all this stuff. It seems simple, but it's incredibly powerful when we add that in and think about the fact that we're growing and evolving, and “I can't do it yet.”

Also, our brain loves to be in the black and white, and it loves to think, “I can or I can't”. It's not that simple. Helping the brain actually see the gray and embrace it, “I'm good at this part. I'm not great at this part, yet.” That's probably a lot more realistic in a lot of situations. As you're building up your child's confidence and getting them to think about all these things they have yet to do, ask them for their opinion.

 

If you're struggling with something or even if you're not, but you just want to engage them, ask them, what do you think I should do? And what you're doing is you're showing them in that moment, “I believe you can figure this out.” You're building that muscle and you're building that confidence—helping them see that everything we do takes effort and practice.

 

Lynn Smith: And don't you also think that there's things we can do earlier on when we see some of these signs that you've talked about? I have an 8 and 5 year old. Andy, my 8 year old is like a carbon copy of you. It's like he wants to be so good at everything, the best soccer player. And I know so many parents at home might be feeling the same way. So how can I and other parents start at a really young age to get them out of this mindset do you think?

 

Jody Baumstein: I think there are two things. We can't leave it up to kids to interpret and to guess what we think is important. We have to tell them. We have to show them ourselves. We have to talk openly about this difference between having high standards, and “I want you to succeed, and I want you to grow, but I am not expecting you're going to get it right every second of the day.” We have to talk about that because kids will make up their own stories and their own narratives in that. Take perfectionism off the table.

 

Number two, a really great strategy universally, is to focus on effort instead of outcome. Now this is really hard in our culture because we are conditioned to think about outcome, but that's really limiting. We do often go into that space of praising kids. “Oh, I'm so proud of you for that GPA.” Over time, when we're doing that, when we are praising a trait, let's say, we're calling someone, “Oh, you're so smart,” and we're praising that trait in someone, which is fixed. They're actually just going to seek more external validation over time. However, when we focus on their effort, it is shown over and over again that kids will start to feel more internally motivated. So instead of, “I’m so happy about all of your A's,” try “I'm really proud of how hard you worked this year. How do you feel?” Or take sports as an example. You pick up your kid from the game or practice, we naturally want to ask about who won and how many goals and all this stuff. Show restraint. This is very hard, but make a conscious effort here. Focus on the learning. Focus on the effort. “What did you enjoy about practice? What are you getting better at? What's hard that you're excited to try next time?” This shift is really powerful.

 

And then the other thing we can be thinking about to just do universally from a very young age, which is very hard is to role model—talking about our own mistakes. Let's recognize it is natural human instinct. We want to hide our imperfections. We don't want people to see us as anything other than perfect, so we want to cover it up, but we have to think about the long term. If we want kids to grow up to be adults who can embrace their mistakes and learn, we have to show them ourselves. We cannot expect them to do something that we don't do. If we make a mistake, and we crumble, and we are beating ourselves up and being really harsh. Guess what? They're going to do that exact same thing. Thinking about how you can do this, and showing them that you respond to mistakes with compassion and patience. You can talk about past things, but you can also do it in real time.

You're cooking, and you pour too much water into the soup you're making because you're not paying attention to the recipe. Talk it out loud. You're doing it for you, but you're doing it for them too. “Oops. Whoop. Okay. Definitely didn't read ahead. I got a little sidetracked. No big deal. I'm going to adjust, but I'm also going to put my phone away, and I'm going to focus on reading the rest of the rest of this recipe so I can be present.” Talking it through, even something as simple as that shows that you were able to learn from it and roll with it. We want to recognize that. Everybody has ups and downs, that's of course a part of life, but when this is becoming a real concern, it's impacting your child's functioning. So, it's not just something that happens on occasion. It's more days than not, and when you question what does that mean impacting their functioning because my kid doesn't have the ability to just tell me. You want to be looking at the behavior and being really curious about what the behavior is communicating.

 

So again, we talked earlier that sometimes the kid who is procrastinating, not finishing assignments, we might label that as they are an underachiever. They're lazy. But that could be something so much deeper. So being curious about what it is and getting to the root of it, not just smacking a label on it. Similarly, we might find that kids are socially isolating or not really engaging in certain activities because they're hyper focused on school and getting perfect grades. That's another sign that this is impacting their ability to function. Our job as an adult, we go to work and things like that. Their job as a kid is to go to school and to play and have fun. And if they aren't able to do these things, that's a pretty good indicator that you want to be getting help.

 

Now, a great starting point is your child's pediatrician. If you have a good relationship with them, talk to them. They probably have good referral options, or you can go right to a licensed mental health professional. You don't have to know for sure what's going on to go and get an assessment and figure out what kind of supports are available. Also visit strong4life.com. We've got lots of great options on there. Articles and content, videos and different coping skills that you can be doing with your kids regularly. Not waiting until they're in crisis, but just building up that toolbox for them so that when things come up, they already know lots of strategies they can use to regulate their mood and manage stress.
 

Andy Irwin: I mentioned earlier, the call that I made to my parents, and I can remember exactly where I was. I was pretty late at night sitting in my car in the parking lot of my favorite restaurant in Athens, and in looking back at that conversation, I don't even remember what they said. It was not about the words that they said. I can remember the feelings that I had in that moment, and it was feeling seen, heard, supported. Like Jody had mentioned before, like there was hope from that conversation, and that was about the environment that they created by actively listening, not judging me in the moment for what I was sharing, but just being the ear.

 

That’s not something that just came in that moment, I think that like Jody mentioned, that's something that's built far over time to say, “Hey, you can come to me with your concerns by telling stories of how you messed up in this moment, or ‘Here's something in my past that didn't go my way,’”  just to normalize those feelings so that I then feel more comfortable sharing about those experiences when they do arise in my life.

Lynn Smith: So powerful. And Jody, I want to close with you. For everyone listening right now, all of us were moved by everything both of you have shared. Jody, can you just give us a quick list of things we really need to avoid doing and also the things we should keep doing to support our kids

 

Jody Baumstein: Sure. I think going off of what Andy just said with the phone call. The number one thing we can be thinking about is unconditional love. This is really hard. We think that kids just know. They need to hear it. If kids think our love and approval is dependent on what they do. They're not going to do anything that jeopardizes that. They will people please to the point of burnout. We often do start to label kids early on. “Oh, you're the good one. Oh, you're my best listener.” And then we internalize that. “I'm the good one. I'm the easy one.” And this happens all the time, even with adults I'm working with. They will say, “That was me. That was my role in the family or in the classroom.” What happens over time, “That's who I have to be. I just have to bend over backwards to everybody else and I have to accommodate.”

 

And so unconditional love, let's just keep coming back to that. It's really important that we are explicitly talking about the fact that our love is not dependent on what they do or achieve. Now this is also our energy, not just our words. So, if we are showing more interest and enthusiasm when kids are succeeding, they will notice that. We have to show up with the same kind of energy even when they're struggling, if not more. So, they're coming home and they've gotten an A and you're freaking out with excitement and praising and celebrating and then they come home with a B or C, and it's ignored, or it's shamed. What message are we giving?

 

So other things we can think about. We really want to help kids with their self-talk. We talked about this in different ways of these things that come up in our heads. Our words matter because they are moving fast in there. And so, we want to think about helping kids understand that their thoughts are not facts. Just because they think it, doesn't mean it's true. There's a ton of power in that. But then we also want to help them understand that inside of us, we get to decide. Do we have a helpful coach? Do we have a really harsh critic? Do we have the cheerleader? We don't want the cheerleader. I know we think we want that, but we actually don't want the cheerleader who's just, “You're flawless, you're amazing.” There's nowhere to grow with that. We don't need that.

 

We also don't need the harsh critic that tears us down. “Oh, you're an idiot. You're not good enough.” That's not helpful either. We need the supportive coach in our mind. The supportive coach wants us to do better, but they are right there with us, encouraging us. “You've got this. You can do better with this, but I'm going to help you.” And so really helping kids understand the power of the mind. And if they struggle with this, a great strategy is to ask them, “What would you say to a friend in this situation?” If they really struggle with saying kind things to themselves, which we all do. We say things to ourselves we would never say to somebody we love, right? So, getting them to think about what would you say to a friend? Or on the flip side, “What would your best friend say to you right now?” This is a great starting point for kids who struggle with that positive self-talk. And then helping them to start to reframe that a little bit.

 

And then finally, what I would end with is we've got to keep in mind that long term impact. We lose sight of this all the time. “Oh, we've got to put them in all these activities, and we've got to keep them busy and they need to get A's.” What do we want them to be like as adults? Do we want them to be balanced? Do we want them to feel secure? Do we want them to feel really connected and attuned to what they want and need and have the ability to speak up when something isn't right. Then we have to teach that and nurture it when they're young.

 

And so, thinking about the fact that we know this has a major impact on our long term. We see this all the time. People who have these perfectionistic tendencies, they people please a lot. It is stopping them when they're older from engaging in certain social situations and even going after jobs and promotions that they want because they are way too scared of taking the risk. However, if we are encouraging bravery from the beginning, and we're talking about safe risks here, we're not talking about being reckless, then kids will have the confidence to say, “Yep, I don't know the outcome, but I'm going to go for that. I feel like I can do that, and I can learn, and I'll get what I need along the way, but I'm going to go for that promotion. I'm going to go for that job.” So, continuing to think about the long term is very important.

 

And then this is the really last thing is just talk, talk about our feelings. I think what was so beautiful and what Andy shared, and I've heard his story multiple times that there's always new things that stand out to me. And one of the things I thought was so powerful was just, he talked early on about how it's relatable. This is all relatable, but it's only relatable if we talk about it and getting out what Andy also mentioned, that reduces stigma when we talk openly about, “Yeah, I struggle with that. Oh, you struggle too?” I immediately feel less alone and less ashamed. That's where the self-compassion also comes in when we realize we are all imperfect. Every single one of us. Now I'm not scared of it. I'm going to embrace it. I'm going to be brave like Andy. I'm going to go out and share my story and help other people. So, talking openly about this it seems so simple, but it has the biggest impact that we can imagine.

 

Lynn Smith: Andy, thank you for sharing such personal details. It is so helpful for people out there. They know now that they are not alone. You're doing such important work. Jody, you as well. The tips you give are so very important here on this podcast. Thank you both so much.

 

For more about Andy story, and to find Raising Resilience resources from the Children's Strong4Life team, visit choa.org/podcasts. We're going to link a wealth of resources there that are designed to equip caregivers with tools to teach kids how to cope with challenges, manage stress, and ultimately make healthy choices throughout their lives. We'll also link to Andy's experience and insightful interviews with his family too. where we're going to give you a wealth of information and resources.

I'm Lynn Smith and this has been Hope and Will, a parenting podcast from Children's Healthcare of Atlanta.